4. White Nationalism, Anti-Semitism and the Vegan Movement

Rundown

This episode explores (and critiques) the infiltration of white nationalist, racist rhetoric into the vegan movement, as well as the growing trend for the alt-right to consider veganism as foundational to their ideology. We start by outlining some of the ways in which white nationalism has been seeping into the online vegan community. We follow that with a discussion of how vegetarianism has been intertwined with Nazi ideology historically, which continues to the present day. Next we provide an analysis of how fascism is capitalism in decay, and how it’s a lack of understanding of political economy that allows people to be swayed by racist populist rhetoric. And finally we wrap it up with a condemnation of anti-semitism in leftist spheres as well, explaining why certain anti-capitalist groups are falling prey to the ‘Jew-as-greedy-banker’ conspiracy theory. As vegans and(/or) leftists looking to build allyship and grow our movements, we must wholeheartedly denounce fascism, white nationalism, and racism in all forms.

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Transcript

TimecodeSpeakerDialogue
00:00:00:00
BEGIN FILE


[THEME MUSIC]

MEXIEWelcome to the Vegan Vanguard.

MARINEA show about all things from the perspective of two revolutionary vegan women.

MEXIEI’m Mexie.

MARINEAnd I’m Marine. And today, we’ll be talking about antisemitism in the vegan movement, and antisemitism more generally in the…sort of alt-right, radical, ethnocentric political climate that we’re living in. [LAUGHTER] And how veganism is becoming part of their agenda to push this ideology. And before we jump in, we just wanted to make a quick disclaimer that neither of us are Jewish, so that neither of us have actually experienced antisemitism.
00:01:04:00MARINEAnd that’s just important, because obviously, we’ll be talking about an oppression and a systemic discrimination, from the point-of-view of people who just haven’t experienced it. So, do stick around until the later half of the podcast, if you would like to hear a lot of names of Jewish people who actually talk about antisemitism, and advocate for global liberation, and anti-capitalism, etc. I just wanted to acknowledge that we’re talking from the point-of-view of allies who oppose antisemitism. But also, as a privileged group who has never experienced anti-Jewish oppression. So, first we’ll be looking at the history of vegetarianism in Nazi…
00:01:56:00MARINEAntisemitic movements. And then, we’ll be looking at how that ideology is seeping into the mainstream vegan movement. Or, I shouldn’t call it the mainstream vegan movement, but just like a, a subculture of the vegan movement. And then, we’ll be looking at how fascism is capitalism in decay, essentially. How, yeah, the capitalist system, by producing crises, etc., leads to totalitarianism and fascism. And then, we’ll also [LAUGHS] be looking at antisemitism in anti-capitalist movements a little bit. And yeah, that’s more or less what I have.

MEXIEAll right. [LAUGHTER] 

MARINEWhew, it’s going to be a long episode.

MEXIEYeah. [LAUGHS] So, okay, first of all, happy new year, everyone.

MARINEHappy new year, everyone. I’m starting the new year on such a bad foot.
00:02:56:00MEXIEYeah, Marine is not feeling so well right now.

MARINENot feeling so hot today. 

MEXIE[INDISTINCT] 

MARINEI really could, yeah. I am feeling a bit better than this morning, when I just thought I would never feel like myself again. [LAUGHTER] But somehow, I have managed to recuperate a little bit.

MEXIEYeah.

MARINEAnd now, I’m at least able to like read, and open my eyes, and have a discussion with you. Something that I was worried I wouldn’t be able to do this morning.

MEXIEYikes. [LAUGHS] Well, giddyap, listeners. 

MARINEYeah. How did you feel about my ability to perform when you received my voice-notes yesterday?

MEXIENo, I thought it would be fine. You’re always fine. You always bounce back.

MARINEOh, good. 

MEXIEYeah. [LAUGHS] You run on no sleep all the time, so.

MARINEI do run on no sleep all the time. One of my many resolutions for 2018 is to try and get better sleep.
00:03:55:00MEXIEMm-hmm. I don’t usually make resolutions. Hmm. I really have to think about that. I don’t know. 

MARINENew Year’s is like the only holiday I actually like. If you can call it a holiday.

MEXIEMine is Halloween. [LAUGHS] But that’s also my birthday, so. [LAUGHS]  

MARINESo, you’re biased.

MEXIEYeah. But anyway, maybe the listeners can tell us if they have any significant resolutions. So…we got a number of new patron pledges in the past [few] days. I think we have five. Wow, it’s a lot. So, thank you so much for your support. And once again, if you wanted to support the show, which really goes a long way. We’re trying to save up for some new equipment, and some other things. You can make a one-time donation via PayPal on our website, or you can sign up on our Patreon page as a monthly pledge. So, we want to say a very special thank you to Grace, or the Vegan Marxist.
00:04:58:00MEXIE[Barry Mackie Conlin], Helen [Grainer], Mike [Albanese]. And I’m very, very sorry that I’m probably not going to pronounce this correctly, but [Atkan Deibas], thank you so much for joining up and becoming our monthly patrons. And I would also like to give a special thanks to Sonia [Gedicki]. Sorry, again, just Sonia, thank you so much. She made a one-time PayPal donation which was very generous. So, thank you for that. 

MARINEThanks so much, everyone. 

MEXIEYeah. [LAUGHS] All right, so–

MARINEAll right, so should we get into it?

MEXIELet’s just get into it. So…for anyone who’s not in the vegan…sphere, the online vegan community, I’m just going to talk briefly about how some of this white nationalist alt-right ideology has been seeping into our communities. 
00:05:56:00MEXIEThere are a number of figures…who are vegan celebrities in the movement, [LAUGHS] that have been slowly moving from just like a general anti-SJW stance, to more insidiously alt-right messaging and rhetoric. So, we have big names like [Fully Raw] Kristina, tacitly endorsing people like John Rose, who is this fully raw-vegan guru. Just for the record, I don’t really watch a lot of these people’s channels. This has just been brought to my attention, because I personally don’t get a lot out of ‘what I ate in a day,’ or raw vegan videos or whatever. But yeah, these are big figures. So Fully Raw Kristina tacitly supporting this fully-raw guru, John Rose, who is…a neo-Nazi, basically, and a Hitler apologist. [LAUGHS] 
00:06:58:00MARINEWhat? Really? 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] Yes.

MARINEOh, my god, I have no idea who this dude is.

MEXIEYeah, I’ll have to show you later, or if anyone’s interested in looking this up. He goes off in all of his videos, just talking about how we’ve just been taught that Hitler was so bad, and yeah, yeah. Yeah, so there’s that. I’m sure a lot of people are aware of Vegan Gains. Even in the leftist community, people might be aware of Vegan Gains, because he did debates with Roaming Millennial and [Bearing]…on veganism. So he, again, started as kind of anti-SJW. I actually used to like him. I actually used to subscribe to him and watch his videos a long time ago. It was really informative. He did a lot of good research, and he really shut people down if they were kind of questioning the vegan [LAUGHS] message. But yeah, he just really got into this anti-SJW train.
00:07:56:00MEXIEAnd then recently, has been moving full-force into the alt-right. He did a live-stream with Tara McCarthy. For anyone who doesn’t know Tara McCarthy, I think she’s more well-known in leftist circles, because she’s a very prominent figure, a woman on the alt-right, buddying up with Lauren Southern, etc. She just talks a lot about a white ethno-state, and really puts down any non-whites…for a number of reasons. She’s a race-realist, etc. And yeah, so Vegan Gains did this stream with her, and he–

MARINEDid they talk about that, in particular?

MEXIEWell, he did not denounce any of their white-nationalist rhetoric. And he was going off about Islam, and Black Lives Matter. Which is ridiculous, because he himself is not white, so… [LAUGHS] 
00:08:58:00MARINEYeah, you don’t have to be white to…espouse white-nationalist beliefs.

MEXIENo, absolutely not. So, we have Jamie [Leardi]. I don’t sit around watching these people’s channels. Like I really don’t.

MARINEI know him, because I used to follow him when he went by Simply Vegan. And…I liked his channel. And then, he just slowly really fucking went off the deep end. 

MEXIEMm-hmm.

MARINEAnd now, he posts like, what, 45-minute videos about…anti-globalism and how…

MEXIEQuote-unquote globalism. We could do a whole podcast on that whole bullshit. But anyway, and also, Corey McCarthy… obviously related to Tara McCarthy, and he’s like another vegan body-builder who is also a neo-Nazi.
00:09:56:00MEXIESo, there’s a lot.

MARINEThere’s also the golden one.

MEXIEIs he vegan?

MARINEIs he not? [TALKS OVER] Wait. I definitely thought he was vegan. I’m going to look this up right now.

MEXIEI really don’t think he is. [LAUGHS] 

MARINEOh, okay, his first video is ‘I’m going semi-vegan and 90% vegetarian.’ Oh my god, and he has a video called Vegan Gains, I actually like him.

MEXIEOh my god.

MARINENo, yeah, he’s posted a lot about veganism. Veganism, protein intake, and macronutrients.

MEXIEWow.

MARINEHe does collabs with Corey McCarthy.

MEXIEOh, fuck, all right, okay, so the golden one. Fuck, man, this is like tarnishing the movement so badly. The fucking golden one is a vegan? [LAUGHS] 

MARINERight.

MEXIEOh, god. This is horrible.

MARINEAll right, yeah, so from what I gather with the titles, he’s just very interested in veganism, and somewhat promotes it, which does not surprise me. 
00:10:56:00MARINEBecause we’ll see why vegetarianism has such a deep and dark history in…extreme right-wing movements, which he is definitely a part of.

MEXIEDefinitely. So, yeah, and I mean, you and I have had experiences with certain people who are not super popular, but just commenting on our channels and like…harassing us [LAUGHS] about Hitler. 

MARINERight. 

MEXIETo put it mildly. So yeah, we’ve been really experiencing this growth in this really white-nationalist, or alt-right, just real oppressive, kind of fascistic kind of ideas just moving into the vegan movement. And again, like I said, I don’t sit down and watch these people very often, but in looking, doing some research for this podcast, I started to watch a bit of different people’s videos. So, I was watching Jamie Leardi, and looking at Tara McCarthy’s Twitter and everything.
00:11:56:00MEXIEAnd something that really jumped out at me is the fact that their whole motto, or their whole premise is question everything. Question all facts. The establishment is lying. And this is really, it’s such a, it’s kind of like a really dangerous trope. Kind of like the…freedom-of-speech trope that’s just become this weird co-opted idea, that allows you to question certain things, like question things that have basically been determined to be fact. Just question those facts, but not question other things. Like not question the reason behind structural inequality, or institutional racism, or anything like that, you know what I mean. 
So, what I found really interesting, was that Jamie Leardi, I guess on his page, he said that he started out as like…
00:12:57:00MEXIEMore of like an anti-capitalist, social-justice warrior, vegan. Like really wanted to make change in the world. But then, just became so disillusioned, and then started to realize that everything is a like, and we have to question everything. And that led him down this road of like…Nazism, basically. And it’s just amazing to me, because he said that he wanted, actually, to fight to create an alternative to this capitalistic, unsustainable tyranny that we’re living in now, and put an end to exploitation and enslavement. 
And yet…he’s not actually understanding where that is coming from, and he’s definitely not questioning it. So, they say that this is the world, now, of the allies, which are the victors of the war. And this is one of globalism. And capitalism, and communism. Which is also hilarious that it’s like, what, capitalism and communism?
00:13:57:00MEXIE[LAUGHS] [INDISTINCT] 

MARINEYou know what, Mexie? Why not? 

MEXIEYeah, like it’s all just so bloody incoherent, and…contradictory, that it’s…like, how are you not questioning all of these things that should be questioned, but you’re questioning the fact that the Holocaust happened. That’s the question you’re asking. You’re not asking actually [LAUGHS] why is it that we’re actually living in this situation, with so much inequality, so much environmental degradation, etc. So, yeah, I just really felt like a lot of these people, they’re just trying to reinvent the wheel by bringing up these things that have long been discussed, long been debated, long been put to bed, and talking about them as if they’re these novel things that we really need to get into the mainstream, and discuss, and debate, and whatever.
00:14:56:00MEXIELike race and IQ, or things like that. They’re all like, oh, the mainstream media isn’t talking about this. We need to debate. That’s what makes the west so great, is open discussion and debate. And it’s like, dude, we discussed it. It’s been discussed ages ago, and we put it to bed. That’s eugenics. We already understand that. The reason why nobody is talking about it in the mainstream is because…it’s done. [LAUGHS] Just go look at the debates. Just go read them. We don’t need to have a new debate. It’s like people are just totally reinventing the wheel, and then thinking that they’re actually bringing something novel and incredible into the sphere, and being like, wow, the mainstream media’s lying to you, but we’re not going to lie to you. 
We’re going to look at this. And it’s like, [SCOFFS] [LAUGHS] like how do you even fight that, other than being like, please look at these many bodies of literature that disprove what you’re saying, before you even make hour-long live-streams about it, discussing it as if you’re discovering it.
00:15:57:00MEXIEAll I can say is, we’re past it, and we don’t have time for it, you know what I mean. This isn’t… I don’t know, that’s just my [LAUGHS] ultimate frustration.

MARINERight. 

MEXIESo yeah, but yeah, it’s like…pretty alarming. Especially someone like Fully Raw Kristina, who seems so completely innocuous and froufie-frou, to have this person on your channel and saying that this is a life-long mentor for you. And that if you watch some of his other videos, he’s just going off about–

MARINEThat’s shocking. 

MEXIEYeah. [LAUGHS] So…Marine, I think you’re going to talk a bit about how and why these people actually believe that veganism is so important to their ideology. 

MARINEMm-hmm. So, I am going to start talking about…
00:16:55:00MARINEThis idea that Hitler was a vegetarian, which I’m sure if you’re vegan, you’ve heard a million times, because that’s one of people’s gotcha points, is well, Hitler was a vegetarian. And he was super violent. As if that literally proves anything. I mean, how many people who…did horrible things consumed meat? I just don’t understand why it’s relevant whatsoever. But anyway. So, within Hitler and the vegetarian thing, I’m going to first talk about how it was a PR to essentially [humane-wash] his campaign.
But then, I’m also going to critically look at why vegetarianism was thought to be so compatible with…antisemitism and ethno-nationalism. So…the myth that Hitler was a vegetarian was probably just a PR move that was administered by Hitler’s minister of propaganda, Joseph Goebbels.
00:17:55:00MARINEThere’s a lot of evidence that he actually wasn’t a vegetarian. If you look at Bite-Sized Vegan’s video titled, ‘was Hitler a vegetarian,’ which we’ll link in the show-notes, she gives a lot of great evidence, and actually quotes a book written by Robert Payne, called ‘live and death of Adolf Hitler’, [LAUGHS] where he cites evidence that Hitler ate meat, and only occasionally restricted his consumption, due to digestive issues, and excess bloating and gas. [LAUGHTER] 
So, that’s…an interesting piece of information.  

MEXIEThat is interesting, ‘cause I, even as a vegan, I really did think that he was vegetarian. 

MARINEMm-hmm. And also, he…apparently carried a whip everywhere he went, and beat his dog in public. Which is not a very vegan-friendly thing to do.

MEXIENo.

MARINENo, no. And so apparently, Goebbels propagated the myth of Hitler’s vegetarianism, as well as this fictional abstention from alcohol and cigarettes.
00:19:04:00MARINEIn order to emphasize Hitler’s total dedication and self-control and disciplinated char-, disciplined character, that distanced him from all other men. And not only was Hitler not opposed to animal cruelty, he actually, in a lot of the slaughterhouses, and his treatment of Jews, were directly influenced by assembly-line slaughterhouses in the United States. 
And this is explored extensively in the book ‘eternal [Treblinka].’ So yeah, that’s a must-read on my list. I’ve read several synopses of it, and my good friend, [Laura Schleifer] has given really great [LAUGHS] overviews of the book to me. And she actually did…recently was on a podcast called Animal Rights Zone, which I totally recommend.
00:19:58:00MARINEAnd I just listened to it this morning. The podcast explores Holocaust and slaughterhouse comparisons, and why they’re offensive, and she extensively talks about this book, and actually how making a simplistic direct analogy between animals in slaughterhouses and Jews in concentration camps, keeps us from exploring the real connections of the systematic oppression of both of those victims. 
So, I recommend checking out that podcast. So, apart from the fact that Hitler wasn’t actually, in practice, a vegetarian…Hitler also bolstered his belief in ethno-nationalism, or the belief that Europe rightfully belonged only to Aryans, with a desire to respect animals and respect the environment. The Nazi government heavily pushed environmental reforms and animal-welfare reforms, such as reforestation programs, and the protection of certain species of plants and animals.
00:20:58:00MARINEAlong with Hitler, Heinrich [Himmler], which was also one of the prominent figures of the Nazi party, was a vegetarian who opposed vivisection and cruelty towards animals. So, this desire to protect the environment, and also protect animals, is very much linked to the conviction that Europeans should only be Aryans, and they should be deeply connected to the land, and protective of the land, and be…pure, and…propagate, I guess, racial exceptionalism.
And this still very much persists today. A Vice article called…one second. 

MEXIEWhy so many white-supremacists are into veganism?

MARINEYeah, that’s it. 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] Yeah, that’s the one [I was looking at], too.

MARINEAwesome, thank you. So, they explain…how important the notion of blood and soil is to right-wing fascists. And this fictional connection to the land was also defended last year in Charlottesville.
00:21:57:00MARINESo, the article explains that quote, blood and soil lends itself to an idealized vision of Aryan ethical veganism as part of white people’s racial purity and heritage. Romanticized veganism can serve as an entry-point to white nationalism, or reinforce other white-nationalist beliefs. 

MEXIEMm-hmm. What I thought was super interesting…as part of this, was the fact that they…kind of admit that vegetarianism was actually a non-white thing, historically. Like it grew out of Hinduism in ancient India. So, they kind of acknowledge that, but then they say that that kind of vegetarianism is selfish, because Hindus abstain from meat for fear of retribution in the afterlife. 
Whereas Aryan vegetarians…are unselfish, and they’re just demonstrating their superiority…
00:22:58:00MEXIEFor…the good of all sentient creatures. Except non-whites and Jews. [LAUGHS] 

MARINEMm-hmm, yeah. That actually lends itself well to my next point, which is that vegetarianism has been espoused by right-wing ideology, because of this idea of moral rectitude, and fighting degeneracy. So, that article also mentions that on aryanism.net, for example, there’s a full page dedicated to veganism, filled with quotes from Hitler, [Hess, Devi], and Joseph Goebbels, to ultimately argue that veganism is a hallmark of an authentic national socialist.
And it’s a sign of genuine empathy, and a level of nobility beyond…presently popular norms. So, they propose that veganism should not only be associated with quote-unquote pacifist hippie caricatures. 
00:23:59:00MARINEAnd instead, that the true vegan archetype is the noble Aryan warrior. 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] 

MARINE[SIGHS]

MEXIEGod, this is unbearable for me to hear. I’m honestly juxtaposing that, this image of this Aryan warrior, like the golden one flexing his muscles and…his spear. I’m juxtaposing that with the Instagrams of Bonnie Rebecca and Ellen Fisher, and all these people who are just like, oh, super hippie caricatures of white people being like, I love the Earth, and I love plants and animals and, you know what I mean. [LAUGHS] Fuck!

MARINEYeah. And also, I remember part of Jamie [Leardi’s] things, I can just see photos of him in my head, looking into the distance with a tuxedo, and trying to represent European greatness, and listening to classical music and saying, hip-hop is rotting our brains, or some shit. 
00:25:08:00MEXIEMm-hmm. Other than white-nationalist hip-hop, which I’ve heard. The golden one promotes it.

MARINEYeah, [TALKS OVER] I’m going to talk about that next. Oh, I’m sure. I’ve only read about Nazi hip-hop, but apparently, it’s a thing. 

MEXIEYeah, well, I did this one video one time, where I was scrolling through the golden one’s tweets, and just commenting on each one of them. And yeah, he was sharing some Nazi rap, and…it was hilarious, but…horrendous. 

MARINE[TALKS OVER] I know, I remember watching that at the gym, like I told you. It was so funny. That’s such a funny video of yours. I watched the entire thing.

MEXIEI actually made it private, because it was just getting overrun with Nazis, and I was like, I don’t know if I want this up on my feed anymore, but anyway. [LAUGHS] 
00:25:56:00MARINEThe…last connection I’m going to speak about, and I think that it’s probably the most pervasive one, is…the connection between race and diet, and believing that quote-unquote Aryans are particularly well-suited to a vegan diet. And this was also something, this was also a belief promoted by Hitler, that…racial purity was conducive to vegetarianism.
And the article that I previously mentioned on aryanism.net, also reimagines a prehistoric past where Aryans were farmers who ate grains and vegetables, as opposed to the herding and meat-eating Jews. 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] 

MARINESo, Nazi has historically…tried to gain territory by essentially…colonizing subcultures, and trying to seem cool and trendy.
00:26:58:00MARINESo, a few years ago, there was the [nipster] trend in Germany, which is [LAUGHTER] what? I know, nipster. It sounds so much like nipple. How can people [take it] seriously?

MEXIEIt’s like a hipster, but nipster? [LAUGHS] 

MARINEWell that’s the thing, they’re Nazi hipster. 

MEXIEThat’s awful.

MARINEYeah. Let’s just call them nipples. Actually, no, you know what? Nipples are fucking beautiful. 

MEXIEIt also kind of reminds me of Napster, that old…illegal downloading site. Never mind. 

MARINEOh.

MEXIEYour face is confused. 

MARINEOh, yeah. I was like, that reminds me of diaper. Anyway, nipsters, eco-Nazis, and Nazi hip-hop, which you shouted out earlier. Like Nazi Tumblr blogs, cooking shows, and also, nipster fashion.

MEXIEEw. [LAUGHS] 

MARINEYeah. So, the notion that veganism is somehow quote-unquote natural for white people has also been spread by white-nationalist YouTubers, which…
00:27:59:00MARINEWe’ve talked about, like Jamie [Louis Leardi], the golden one. And I put down vegetable police, ‘cause I know that that was a thing at one point, but I never watched that video–

MEXIEI didn’t watch it either, but yeah. 

MARINESo, specific to that, we can think of the vegan cooking show called Baklava [Cooch].

MEXIEWhat? [LAUGHTER] 

MARINEI don’t know, that’s probably not how you pronounce it.

MEXIEBaklava cooch. [LAUGHTER] Okay.

MARINESo, it’s…

MEXIEI think that should be the name of the episode. [LAUGHTER] 

MARINENipsters and baklava cooches. So, the cooking show is presented by nationalist socialists from Hanover, wearing baklava.
00:28:58:00MARINEOh, and–

MEXIEYou mean balaclavas?

MARINEWhat?

MEXIEYou mean balaclavas?

MARINENo, it’s called, oh yeah. [LAUGHTER] 

MEXIEI’m like, they’re wearing desserts on their faces? [LAUGHTER] 

MARINEBaklavas were a dessert, oh my god. That makes sense. Balaclava, you’re right. ‘Cause it’s balaclava cooch. Y’all, I’m not awake today, okay? In my head, it’s…

MEXIEThat’s fine, that was awesome. 

MARINEThere’s also a cooking magazine called Homefront, run by a white-nationalist woman, that focuses on domestic issues and housekeeping, and promotes vegetarian recipes for Aryan healthy families. [SIGHS] 

MEXIEYeah, they’re all just totally ignoring the fact that this actually started in eastern cultures. Like this started in ancient India. [TALKS OVER] This was not an Aryan thing.
00:29:58:00MEXIEI mean, I guess it was also there, in ancient Greece. But, come on, you know? 

MARINEYeah, no, it’s super fucked-up, and it’s just like…yeah, they’ve completely appropriated and co-opted veganism to promote their agenda. 

MEXIEAnd also because, in this capitalist global economy, for so long…many of the non-western countries, and different people, were…by necessity, vegetarian, because they couldn’t actually access meat. So, it’s like vegetarianism has been a real global thing for a real long time. And if it made people racially superior, then…looks like everyone else has been racially superior to us for millennia. [LAUGHS] 

MARINEAnd I feel like that’s why they make…
00:30:56:00MARINEThe distinction that you spoke about earlier, that their veganism is ethically based in animal rights, and supreme compassion and moral rectitude, rather than…just a vegetarian or vegan diet that is actually motivated by selfish either health-related concerns, or spiritually related motives, or whatever.

MEXIEBut even if you look into the spiritual reasons of why they were doing it, a lot of it just had to do with respecting the sentience of all beings, and not wanting to consume something that had a soul. So, it’s not, it doesn’t sound that selfish, really. It sounds like the same reasons. They just had to paint it in a different light. 

MARINETotally. So…next, we can move in to…why capitalism leads to fascism, and why anti-Semitism is an extension of that. 
00:31:55:00MEXIEYeah, I feel like…the underlying cause to all of this, or yeah, I feel like the underlying problem to a lot of this is just a complete lack of understanding of political economy in any real sense. Like all of these people who get online and have their things being like, question everything. But they don’t actually ever question the reasons why we have structural inequality, or why racism persists. Like they’ll say things, like Tara McCarthy will say things like, oh, obviously non-whites are just, perform poorly in the market.
Well, not all non-whites or whatever, but you know, let’s say black people perform poorly in the market. But they wouldn’t ever actually look at, well, what are some of the structural oppressions, like what are the reasons behind this? They’ll just assume, oh, it’s because of your race. That’s exactly why, right. So, it’s like, question some things, just take everything else at face-value.
00:32:55:00MEXIEAnd this just complete lack of understanding of political economy, I think really opens people up to believing in these things. Because that’s why I dedicate my whole channel to that, to teaching that. I don’t spend a lot of time making call-out videos, or making videos about, oh, this person is a racist, this person whatever. ‘Cause it’s just like, what does me calling you a racist do? That’s just, you know what I mean. I need to educate you as to why these things are happening, so that you do not have those racist beliefs in the first place.
So, that you do not look at a poor person struggling in a ghetto somewhere and think, oh, they’re there because of their race, instead of, they’re there because of racialized capitalism that’s exploiting them. And all these things that they’re concerned about, like the decline of white culture, and white genocide, quote-unquote. Or declining levels of means of subsistence for white people across America, or even in Europe.
00:33:56:00MEXIEInstead of actually looking at the real problems that are underlying these things, or having any understanding of them, they’re just going to blame things on very surface-level things, that again, we’ve already debated, we’ve already put this to bed. We’re past it. So, I feel like the most…dangerous part of all this, is that no one is actually seeing what is driving this, on like a real structural level, systemic level. And–

MARINEAbsolutely. And if you just look at the state of the world right now, people’s actual material conditions. And also, if you don’t question the narrative that we’re just sold on a daily basis, yeah…whites, on average, in the United States, I think a family has like 22 times the amount of wealth as black families. They’re obviously more educated, more well-off, and– 
00:34:56:00MEXIETheir life-expectancy is way longer.

MARINEYeah, exactly. But it’s, you’ve got to question why that is. And I know that a lot of this white-nationalist movement, [I’m] going to talk about Jamie again for a second, ‘cause I’m the most familiar with his realization, because I kind of saw it happening. But he points to all the great things that white people have done, and the classical music, and the breakthroughs in mathematical knowledge. And the beautiful architecture. But it’s like, dude, look at where we stole all of these resources from. 
How are you missing such a giant part of the picture here? Yeah, if you look at the situation right now, and don’t question the history, and also look at the situation…through how it’s presented to us, which is that white people do so many amazing things, then yeah, you’re going to think white people are superior.
00:35:58:00MEXIERight. Yeah, and yeah, it’s so interesting, ‘cause even if you think about things like Machu Picchu, which was like a marvel of engineering. They actually built that thing, and they terraced the under, the soil level, so that there’s a rock level and a soil level. They terraced all that, so that it would never erode down the mountain. Never.
And they had a full irrigation system, where everyone, the water was filtered, and then sent through pipes to everyone there. That was ancient wisdom that did that. And like working with the natural world, in ways that we have totally lost today. Like what we do now is, we work against nature. Like it’s cold outside, so I’m going to shut myself in here, pump a lot of energy through the house. Or shut myself in, not use natural light—use electricity to bring light in, you know what I mean. We’re really good at just building things that don’t require that much intimate knowledge with the world around us. 
00:36:59:00MEXIEBut anyway, yeah. I was just reading this book, ‘A Foodie’s Guide to Capitalism’, which is really awesome. But they’re talking about even in terms of agricultural systems and everything. We would not be anywhere as western nations or quote-unquote wealthy white people, without slavery. And even today, slavery in foreign temporary workers. It’s still going on.
We would not be anywhere without immigrants…and slaves. So, it’s just like, do you have any idea what our economy would look like if we actually just exported all the immigrants? Do you have any understanding of what would happen? What are we going to do without everyone here working for us, at all?
It’s just this lack of understanding of history, or of politics or economics, is just like…
00:37:59:00MEXIEIf you actually had your way, you would be…so upset at the world that you were left with, if you actually ethnically cleansed everyone–

MARINEOh, yeah.

MEXIE–that was doing all this work for us, and making us as quote-unquote great as we are.

MARINERight. And if you had to give back all of the resources that all these supposedly amazing white inventions relied on, we’d have nothing.

MEXIEThey would never do that. But even if they just got their wish of ethnic cleansing, no—do you think that your problems are going to go away? Your problems are because of the fucking political/economic system. It’s going to be worse for you without people actually working these jobs. You’re not going to have access to what you have access to now, at the prices that you have access to them. 

MARINEMm-hmm.

MEXIESo.

MARINEYeah, it’s so frustrating. 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] Yeah.

MARINEIt’s so frustrating. And it’s [TALKS OVER] very confusing how that very…
00:38:57:00MARINEObvious point…somehow does not at all destabilize them.

MEXIEMm-mm, no. I know, I’m like, who are these people that they’re talking to? Who is buying this up, you know? It’s just incredible to me. Even if you ethnically cleanse, the problem is capitalism. And fascism, across the world, has always been capitalistic. Even these new…Hayek and Mises, whatever, were supporting, or fascist apologists, you know? [LAUGHS] 

MARINERight, and capitalism has really thrived under fascist dictatorships in the past.

MEXIE[TALKS OVER] Really, really.

MARINELook at Pinochet, look at Hitler.

MEXIE[TALKS OVER] Exactly. Yeah, the CIA has installed dictators for the sole purpose of instituting like Chicago Boys, Washington-Consensus-type economies.
00:39:56:00MEXIEThey’ve done that purposefully, ‘cause they knew that dictators could get it done. Whereas if they opened it up for democratic discussion and debate, people would not be down for losing all of their benefits, losing their healthcare, privatizing water, and not being able to access fucking anything. They would not be down for that.
I mean, some of the places today, that they’re having the greatest growth in GDP are under totalitarian regimes. 

MARINEYeah, that’s maybe why Trump’s all into–

MEXIELike Cambodia. 

MARINERight, and the Philippines.

MEXIEYeah. 

MARINEMan, it just gets me so mad.

MEXIERight.

MARINEYeah, that capitalism…is always going to produce crises of various intensities and lengths, as long as it exists. And this is just because, structurally, capitalism chases infinite growth, on a finite planet, and capitalists are always eventually going to run out of either labor, power, or natural resources, or exploit the working class so much, that they don’t have the purchasing power to actually buy any of the goods that they produce.
00:41:02:00MARINEAnd so, yes, capitalism creates the market, and destroys it at the same time. And this is a contradiction that is never resolved. It only creates the illusion of recovery, in several different ways. [LAUGHS] But it doesn’t actually ever resolve its main contradiction. And whenever crisis hits, the system’s justifications for existing need to become more and more radical. 
So, as economist Richard Wolff says, quote-unquote when capitalism is in crisis, it needs to come up with an explanation to its problems, that can lead to actions to be taken, that will lead the system out of the conversation. And this is when toxic ideologies, like right-wing nationalism, are able to spread. And we’re seeing this happen a lot today…that right-wing nationalism is spreading, as a direct response to people’s grievances and desperation. 
00:41:58:00MARINESo, they’re able to tap into people’s pain and fear of lost status. Whether it’s racial, gendered, or economic. And scapegoat either Jews, or refugees, or black people, or whoever…for the system’s failures. This was very much true with Hitler, who capitalized off of the Great Depression in 1929, which left tens of millions of people unemployed. And Hitler was able to tap into people’s fear and anger, and turn it into ethnocentric nationalist pride. So really, racism and fascism are the underbelly of capitalism, because capitalism necessarily creates inequality, necessarily creates exploitation. And then, these ideologies are necessarily needed to justify the inequalities [LAUGHS] that capitalism has produced. So, rather than blaming the system itself, [it responds] to capitalism’s invariable crises by redirecting people’s revolutionary anger towards the victims of the machines, who have absolutely nothing to do with its technical ineptitudes. 
00:43:01:00MARINEAnd I really felt like bringing this up, because…on our channel, I know that, I mean, on your channel, and on my channel, a comment that we get a lot is, oh, well, then if you’re blaming capitalism, what are you endorsing, fascism? Would you prefer…the dictatorships that went on? And it’s like, no, let’s look at the connection between why those dictatorships were able to thrive under the economic system of capitalism. Because…fascism is just capitalism in decay. Who said that? I don’t want to take credit for that quote.

MEXIELenin.

MARINELenin. [LAUGHTER] Well, let’s look forward to comments on that. 

MEXIEWell, I think my listeners will be down for it, but… [LAUGHS] 

MARINEYeah.

MEXIEYeah, well, I mean, people say a lot that, in times of crisis, capitalist crisis, it’ll swing one of two ways:
00:43:58:00MEXIEIt’ll either swing towards socialism, or towards fascism. And the reason that…in modern-day, or the reason that, a lot of times, it tends to swing more towards fascism, and the reason why people are more attracted to that today, is because fascism is capitalistic. So, people are not being asked to significantly challenge the economic system.  They’re not being asked to significantly redistribute wealth. They don’t have to lose their positions of power and privilege. So, they’d rather submit to this totally racist, authoritarian ideology, than move towards socialism, because socialism is too radical for them.  Like oh, changing the bedrock of society. Egalitarianism. Redistribution. Welfare and [help], right. Like, I might not be in this position of power and privilege anymore. 
00:44:56:00MEXIESo, people are just, find fascism more palatable, which is so sickening to me, that like, I think that just shows the level of internalization of neoliberal rhetoric that is prevalent here, that we would rather go towards fascism, than actually redistribution of wealth in any meaningful sense.

MARINEMm-hmm. I also feel like a transition to fascism, though, is going to benefit from a lot more material support, from the people who have it, than a transition to socialism. 

MEXIEMm-hmm, yeah.

MARINEBut yeah, I totally get what you mean. And I feel like it’s this double-edged thing, where you need to push individualism to the max, so that you make people really scared of their own precarious situation. And then, you also simultaneously push this ideology that it’s actually your neighbors of color that are causing you to be in this situation. Which I feel like would fall flat, if we weren’t all so…
00:45:59:00MARINEConditioned with individualism all of the time.

MEXIEYeah, I mean, if you think about it, this is the kind of rhetoric that is just present normally, in many conservative parties. Many conservative platforms or Republican platforms will shift the blame away from the actual system, and towards immigrants, or towards unions.  How many conservative uncles have you heard just, oh, the damn unions are [LAUGHS] you know what I mean. Or like, immigrants are taking our jobs. And then if you actually look at the facts, it’s like, no, they are not. They are supporting our entire economy, you know? So yeah, I feel like this kind of stuff is, I feel like it’s able to gain the momentum and everything that it is gaining recently, because it’s always present in neoliberal rhetoric, to some extent. 
00:46:56:00MEXIEIt’s already there in our minds. So, this is just an exaggeration of it. Whereas socialist rhetoric is not present in our minds. Like, that is so foreign to people, that this kind of stuff makes more sense to them, because it’s just saying things that have already been said, but just a little more forcefully, or a lot more forcefully. But things that have already been out there in the public sphere.

MARINERight. It’s a really good point. I hadn’t even considered that. 

MEXIE[SIGHS] So…

MARINESo…the next point.

MEXIE[LAUGHS] 

MARINEWe did want to talk about this in the podcast, ‘cause we thought it was important—the fact that there is anti-Semitism in parts of the leftist anti-capitalist movements. And that, obviously, we very much condemn that. And anti-Semitism is still a problem, obviously. 
00:47:56:00MARINEAnd this is not just a problem that exists in right-wing circles. So, historically, distrust of finance has very often, and very incorrectly, been linked to a distrust of Jews. And I think it’s an extremely dangerous and problematic association, which we need to be hyper-vigilant of. Because representing Jews as cruel, and as self-interested, has been used as…a justification for anti-Semitism, and a tactic to treat them inhumanely for literally centuries. We can think about one of the earliest, and most prominent, examples of this stereotype in the story of Judas, who was the ultimate betrayer of Jesus, who was a malicious, greedy money-lender. And the trope of this Jewish money-lender was also heavily represented in art, as early as the 1100s.
00:49:02:00MARINETo show the morally degenerate status of Jews, and promote Christianity…in its place. So, in art, and I’ll link a book about this in the show-notes…they, Jewish people were really, really often stereotyped with physical attributes that made them readily identifiable, such as pale skin and hooked noses. And the stereotyping was, by the way, inaccurate, and totally absent from art in antiquity. And throughout the middle-ages. So, it really arose to fit an anti-Semitic propaganda machine. But this association between Jews and money extends far beyond the religious context of Christianity. For example, we can think about Shakespeare’s seminal work, which I read in high school, actually, called The Merchant of Venice, where the villain, shylock, is an evil Jewish money-lender.
00:50:02:00MARINEAnd this is association was, of course, used by European fascist dictators seeking to exterminate Jews in the second world-war, all over. And just this dangerous dehumanizing trope is still very much present in a lot of our popular culture today. And so, yeah, there are…so-called leftists. I say ‘so-called,’ because I don’t think that true leftism can be anti-Semitic.  But who pump this anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, in which Jews control the entire world, and all of the banks, and all of the resources.

MEXIE[LAUGHS] 

MARINEAnd that they are, by nature of their Jewishness, antithetical to the anti-capitalist struggle.

MEXIEOh, yeah.

MARINESo yeah, just wanted to make it clear that we obviously entirely reject this bullshit, and have zero patience for it.
00:50:55:00MARINEActually, Jews have been a major force in the history of the labor movement, the settlement-house movement, the women’s-rights movement, anti-racist work, anti-Zionist activism, and anti-fascist organizing, in many forms across Europe and the United States.

MEXIEYeah, I mean, even if you actually believed that they were totally in control of finance, and there was some global conspiracy that they were just enacting upon us all… [LAUGHS] which obviously is ridiculous. But even if you did believe that, it’s like, don’t hate the player, hate the game. [LAUGHS] And sorry for saying that so lamely, but…and I understand, some of the… Players are just the incarnate of evil. So, I understand hating some of the players. But at the end of the day, capitalism grew out of Europe and Britain.
00:52:00:00MEXIESo…I don’t really understand this idea of being really, really angry at individual capitalists, and not actually the system that is the real problem. So.

MARINEMm-hmm. So, we can further put this misleading myth to rest by mentioning some of the very small names that have pretty much founded so much of the leftist movements. So, for example, Emmett Goldman, a feminist anarchist leader. Tim Wise, a prominent anti-racist educator. Noam Chomsky, an anti-war, anti-capitalist historian and author. Harvey Milk, a gay-rights activist and openly gay politician. Leslie Feinberg, a transgender activist and author. Betty [Ferdan], the author of the Feminist Mystique. Bernie Sanders, a democratic socialist leader and politician, who militantly opposes financial greed.
00:53:00:00MARINEFred Newman, the founder of the International Workers Party. Naomi Klein, an environmental and social-rights activism, who vehemently militates and opposes the financial sector and capitalism. Or Gloria Steinem, another prominent feminist journalist and social advocate. So, I do apologize, reading that list out loud made me realize the names were completely all over the place.  But that way, you get [LAUGHS] a good sampling throughout different histories and different causes.

MEXIEYeah, I’m sure some of the listeners will have their own qualms about people who are on that list. But the overall point is that, in no way is it [LAUGHS] okay for anyone on the left, or even think, that anti-capitalist or leftist movements should be anti-Jew or racist in any way.
00:53:57:00MARINEYeah, so anyone who uses anti-capitalist to bolster their anti-Semitism is completely factually wrong, and they can go to hell, in my opinion.

MEXIEYeah.

MARINEAnd plus, they are giving talking points to the pro-capitalist side, who loves, loves to claim that a rejection of capitalism is inherently anti-Semitic. There are entire books that have been written about this, by pro-capitalist Jewish intellectuals. Like there’s this book called, ‘Why are Jews Liberals?” by Norman Podhoretz, or a talk that I recently watched on YouTube by Yaron Brook, that basically says that…any Jew that doesn’t espouse economic individualism is self-hating, because leftism is inherently against their self-interest.

MEXIEMm-hmm.

MARINEAnd the same rhetoric has, of course, been used by non-Jewish, pro-capitalist people as well, to discredit any anti-capitalist movement as being inherently anti-Semitic. 
00:55:01:00MARINESo, I remember that this was a critique that was raised to discredit Occupy Wall Street, back in the day, as just inherently anti-Semitic. 

MEXIEMm-hmm, yeah. I think it’s interesting today that that has also been taken up by people who are capitalists. The alt-right, who use that ideology now, to say that Jews are part of this global conspiracy. Like the globalists, quote-unquote.  Like these are all people who are fascist and obviously pro-capitalist. [LAUGHS] 

MARINEAbsolutely. Yeah, and the fact that, right now, in the United States, we have basically the more pro-Israel government ever. And also, the most overtly anti-Semitic government in a very, very long time. So, obviously… [LAUGHS] 
00:55:56:00MARINEPeople who think anti-Zionism is connected to anti-Semitism should take that at face-value and be like, huh, why is an anti-Semite being so supportive of Israel? Maybe they’re not that connected.

MEXIERight. [LAUGHS] 

MARINERight, so yeah…so, yeah, just…I reject anti-Semitism, regardless of where it is. And I’m aware that, yeah, I think that true…leftism and socialism…should obviously not be anti-Semitic. And I obviously don’t agree with the stereotyping of Jews as greedy money-lenders. And I think that it’s very important that leftists also take a stance against that.

MEXIEYeah, I mean, I’m really encouraged, in the leftist online spaces that I’m in, I’m really not seeing anti-Semitism. And the big leftist YouTubers that I’m seeing are definitely not anti-Semitic.
00:56:59:00MEXIEI’m seeing that a lot on the right. But again, we’ve had some experiences with people on our channels, who are… [LAUGHS] I don’t even know what to say, honestly. But just awful. Just awful.

MARINE[TALKS OVER] I’ve gotten comments…basically passionately urging me to look into…why Jews are responsible for everything that I talk about, or…why anti-capitalism also needs to fundamentally reject Judaism.

MEXIEWow. See, I never get comments like that. But, there was that person that we both had a problem with, who, this is funny, loved my videos. Loved them so much, that he made several videos about how awesome they were. And these were videos in which I did a Marxist economic analysis, and he loved it.
00:58:02:00MEXIEThen, later, when he found out that this was Marxist analysis, hated me. Made this big scene, cutting ties with me, because Marx was a Jew. And how did I not know that Marx is the problem, and that Hitler was the real socialist savior. I fucking hate when people say that national socialism is actually socialism. It makes me want to…shoot my brains out.
Actually, I’ll link some videos Democratic Socialist 01 did, some really good videos about how it’s absurd. But yeah, I’ve definitely been berated by the… [LAUGHS] Hitler was the real socialist, which is like, I just want to pull my hair out and die. 

MARINEMm-hmm. Yeah. So, I just wanted to leave off…
00:58:55:00MARINEBy mentioning Jewish voices for peace, which is an organization I’ve mentioned on the show before, and also on my channel. But as just an example of people who…use and revindicate their Jewish faith, as…well, you know what, let me just read the statement [LAUGHTER] on their website. So, they say, Jewish Voices for Peace members are inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for peace, social justice, equality, human rights, respect for international law, and a US foreign policy based on these ideals. We are inspired by Jewish traditions to work for justice, and such work is part of our own liberation. We work to build Jewish communities that reflect the understanding that being Jewish, and Judaism, are not synonymous with Zionism or support for Israel. I would also add, or support for the banking or financial industry.
00:59:56:00MARINESo, oh, and they say, our work is part of the broad struggle and commitment [to end] racism, anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Arab bigotry, and all forms of oppression. I also wanted to mention some of the many, many other explicit Jewish organizations that advocate for the rights of Palestinian people, and against the Israeli occupation.  So, organizations such as independent Jewish voices, which has branches in Canada and the UK. [Not Now]. Jews for racial and economic justice. [Trafe] podcast. Jews against the occupation. Anarchists against the wall. 972 magazine, and the international Jewish anti-Zionist network are just some of the names. But yeah, they’re an example of people who actually use the Jewish tradition as a way to bolster their activism for all of these things that…yeah, I believe in.
01:01:02:00MEXIEYeah, Jewish anti-Zionists.

MARINEYeah…are a big deal. There’s a lot of them, guys.

MEXIERight, yeah, they’re a thing. [LAUGHTER] 

MARINEThey’re a thing. I made a video with a Jewish anti-Zionist woman called [Laura Schleifer], who just has helped me learn so much about all this stuff. And so, I’m super thankful. So, we’ll link the podcast that she was in about anti-Semitism and veganism, and also, the video from my channel, where she just explains… Just is like a fucking walking encyclopedia about…Zionism, and Israel, and Palestine, and the occupation, etc., etc. 

MEXIEMm-hmm. Yes. So.

MARINEAll right. 

MEXIE[LAUGHS] 

MARINESo yeah, we covered a lot, but hopefully…
01:01:57:00MEXIEYeah, I mean…how do you think we should fight this, you know what I mean? I guess for me, I’m just going to keep putting out information on political economy, so that people understand that it’s not a racial thing, it’s not—this is the real problem. I feel like it’s going to turn a lot of people off of veganism–

MARINEOh, yeah.

MEXIE[LAUGHS] That like Tara McCarthy and the golden one are talking about it.

MARINERight. And I think that vegans need to very firmly condemn anti-Semitism. And I also think that it’s very important for anti-Zionists to have zero tolerance for anti-Semitism. Because it’s actually a…tool that…it’s a tool of the oppressor, to make people think that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are the same thing, because then, you’re so fucking scared to talk about it, like I was for so long. And I’m still labeled as an anti-Semitic, from time to time.
01:02:58:00MARINEAnd yeah, I got to be honest, it really scares me. It’s like, and frustrates me, and is just such a…bullshit tactic, and misrepresentation of my views, to shut me up, because they don’t want me to talk about Israel.

MEXIEYeah. It’s fucking awful. [LAUGHS] I’ve had people say that to me, too. Like watch out for [Village Vegan], she’s an anti-Semite. And I’m like, pardon? [LAUGHS] Just like, are you kidding me? Like, no.

MARINEYeah, why me? Yeah, you condemn the occupation.

MEXIEYeah, I fucking condemn the occupation. I’m just going to say that right now. It’s an illegal occupation, that I condemn. [It’s a] colonial piece of shit.

MARINE[TALKS OVER] Oh no, they’re coming for you.

MEXIE[LAUGHS] Yeah. 

MARINEAnyway, well, it was good to clear the air on all of that.

MEXIEYeah, so I hope you enjoyed the episode, everyone. Once again, if you like the show, please consider sharing it with your friends, or leaving us a review and rating on iTunes or Google Play.
01:04:03:00MEXIE[TALKS OVER] Which we still don’t–

MARINEWe still, [SCOFFS], we thought we would have 100. Maybe we just didn’t believe in it hard enough. 

MEXIEYeah, to be fair, I wasn’t practicing as hard as I should have been practicing.  

MARINE[TALKS OVER] That’s definitely why it didn’t work. 

MEXIEBut now’s your chance to leave us that review, or support the show via Patreon or PayPal.

MARINEAwesome.

MEXIEAwesome.

MARINEWell, bye, everyone. Thanks for listening.

MEXIEWe’ll see you in two weeks. Bye. 


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