Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Android | Google Podcasts | RSS
Rundown
This week Marine interviews Yazan Al-Saadi, a Syrian-Canadian journalist and researcher, about the war in Syria. Yazan’s work has been featured in Al-Akbar English, Muftah, Raseef 22, Democracy Now, Russia Today and Lebanon support. We solicited listener questions for Yazan, ranging from questions around anti-imperialism, the refugee “crisis”, and chemical weapons, to questions around solidarity with other oppressed peoples and the potential for an alternative, united approach going forward. These are incredibly controversial topics in current leftist discourse, but we feel that it’s important for leftists to take seriously the critiques and aspirations of people with a genuine stake in what happens in Syria, regardless of where one might fall ideologically. Yazan provides thought-provoking analysis that will hopefully spark some productive (and perhaps uncomfortable) conversations.
Sources and Links
- Marine’s video “Making Sense of Syria ft. Yazan Al-Saadi”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v-FND8xg1w
- Yazan’s comics at The Nib: https://thenib.com/yazan-al-saadi
- Yazan on Democracy Now!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwJDmNw7DA
Support the Show
19 thoughts on “14. The Syrian War with Yazan Al-Saadi”
Hey Marine and Mexie!
Let me first say that it is always very heartwarming to witness the care and emphaty that you clearly show even for distant and foreign causes! You make me believe again in something that seemed gone in my vaccinity of vapidity, careerism and opportunism or hedonism. A very insightful conversation. I feel like Yazan, to whom I want to express appreciation for his wisdom, allowed me to preemptively not make some mistakes that I might have made because I probably am too focused on western and especially american imperialism and it definitely is the worst single factor and the foremost reason why it is our duty to be involved as our governments and the NATO umbrella kind of channel the american or maybe better corporate/burgeiose interests.
However carefulness and sensitivity is really important as our western identities are so messed up as a result of literally almost 500 years of imperialism. It is an entirely new trajectory of evolution that the capitalist ecosystem build on a rock of violence and exploitation which determines the environment which then shapes us to a large degree. You see it even in our use language. Even a word like cool as a universal positive expression shows both the impoverished and callous language that we are now used to. Poetry and expression of feelings are almost universally absent and a liabilty in our sociopathic society if it can even be called that. As Chris Hedges said, the imperialist culture turns on our own society in the dying stages of empire and capital concentration and its destructive externalities. I feel like especially in terms of the exposure of injustice a democratised access to surveillance would help us a lot and the lost privacy is mitigated by the lack of interest of normal behaviour. Sources can never really be trusted and no individual´s perspective can reach a needed universality and undistorted accuracy.
We should not hesitate as the habits of our consumption cause people to suffer who make our food, cloth and dire neccessities for starvation wages! We need them and they don´t need us but our nations brag with achievements that are only possible with this enforced aid of slavery.
Human beings have a natural right for self determination instead of servitude just like every being and also a birth right to the ressources of nature. They are declared private property as an act of human arrogance and as a consequence of violence. This violence lives forever on in this system as long as we don´t free us from its accumulated guilt. As long as we don´t find back to graceful humility and kneel down in apology and awareness of our deeds. The individuals at the top were never hurt by experiencing the crudely unjust downsides of the system and never channeled their suffering into a fight of liberation from injustice. They lack the awareness and so did I before I was hurt by the structures myself. No institution can provide the education of suffering which creates hurted but beautiful beings as a result with beautiful intentions. Beings with care for humanity instead of a blind idolisation of the own ego. Beings who don´t function like robots but thrive in mutuality. For one another and not secluded in the lonely isles of the self. Beings who want to say the word love.
Mexie and Marine, you are not alone in your intrinsic attempt. We are closer united even through vast distances than careerists who sit next to each other. This will give people like us the chance to show humanity the way to live for which it is worthy to change.
Thank you, Bernd! We’re glad the discussion was useful for you. He definitely made some points that would stir up leftists here, but hopefully in ways that make us step back and reflect and to be conscious in our ways forward. The contradictions of capitalism / imperialism are not easy to untangle…
Yes they are! I mail you the solution tomorrow! Haha, jokes aside. What do you think, should we push for democratising the surveilance state like Varoufakis is saying? I wonder why nobody is talking about forming a global government. Is it not at least something that should be discussed? Like Marx, Rosa Luxemburg and Einstein were? I wonder what your thoughts are.
Yazan’s point is unclear. there’s isn’t a third option for a non-syrian person. You can’t be against Assad (since you don’t live in the region, and able to join the groups fighting against Assad.) the only option a western citizen really have is either to support or against the western intervention in the region, which is often framed as supporting Assad for some reason. And what is supporting self-determination of the Syrian people? There’s Turkey, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel, the US they are already there to determine things. there’s no self-determination left. The choice the US has is either to support the religious fundamentalist group or don’t.
That’s a fair point, it was left fairly unclear where to go from here in terms of forming some sort of alternative coalition. We think that his overall point re: the anti-imperialist left is that we tend to spend all of our energies rallying and fighting against the US dropping bombs (and rightfully so), but don’t put nearly half that energy into fighting and rallying to open the borders or to send money for reconstruction etc., and that we have to at least be conscious of the fact that for many Syrians, anti-imperialism isn’t the be all end all. The point that this is really a war of the elites of many backgrounds versus civilians was apt. Where to go from here for non-Syrian allies? That’s up for discussion… of course we need to fight imperialism at home, but maybe there are ways that we can connect with Syrian civilians in ways that won’t leave them having to accept the brutal Assad regime in the name of anti-imperialism.
This was terrible.
The guy tends to white wash the armed opposition that is basically dominated by extreme jihadist groups like the al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria (who still dominates Idlib) or smaller groups like Jaysh al-Islam (infamous for putting women in cages and using them as human shields on video) who dominated Eastern Ghouta until the Syrian government retook the area. His apologetics of White Helmets were also bizarre but at least he is willing to acknowledge their affiliation with violent extremists.
The comparison between the US war on Iraq and the Russian intervention in Syria is ridiculous. The former was an imperialist regime change operation and the latter an intervention to prevent Syria, in alliance with its government, from collapsing into a failed state like Libya. I’m not naive about the intentions of the Russian government, I know they have their own stakes in the game, but the comparison is total nonsense.
He seemed to acknowledge that the opposition was co-opted and shaped by foreign powers after the Arab Spring. I would emphasize the massive US support for extremist rebels and Turkey’s opening its borders allowing thousands of foreign fighters to enter Syria in support of the armed opposition. But he nonetheless seems to think that the armed opposition is some kind of an emancipatory force of liberation. I suppose that’s why he gets so wishy-washy about what would happen if Assad was ousted. It’s really not that mysterious – you just need to have a concrete analysis of who the most powerful players on the ground are and who would likely fill the power vacuum. The fact the he doesn’t seem to care about whether Assad’s government would be followed by an anarchist utopia, an Islamic fundamentalist state or a government basically like Assad’s is symptomatic of his wishy-washy approach.
As is his bizarre oscillation between pro and anti Western intervention stances. His answer to the question about whether a Western intervention would be better than having Assad stay in power was to mystify the issue. How exactly is this some kind of a false question? This has been a very concrete question posed to Western powers since the civil war began. What kind of a foreign policy could possibly overcome this “false binary”? Perhaps we need to both intervene and not intervene?
I also hate this rhetorical strategy of introducing fake “complexity” to the Syrian situation. Let’s be mindful about how we use words. While introducing simplistic binaries can be damaging to our understanding of a concrete situation, so is vague talk about “complexity”. It’s basically an empty signifier, the purpose of which is put a stop to questioning. When you try to ask these pro-opposition ideologues what the armed opposition groups consist of, should we intervene or not, who should Assad be replaced with etc., they start talking about “complexity”, which sounds sophisticated but means absolutely nothing and its sole purpose is to evade difficult questions. This rhetorical strategy was blatantly obvious in a recent debate on The Real News between Rania Khalek and Yasser Munif where Khalek pressed Munif with hard questions about the nature of the armed opposition and basically all he could say was “It’s complex!” without any further explication.
The Western anti-imperialists that this guy seems to hate so much support Assad’s government and its allies *in this conflict* not because Assad is a great guy but because the alternative – foreign intervention and the extremist armed opposition taking power – would be worse. I’m sure there are actual fans of Assad out there but for genuine anti-imperialists it has nothing to do with justifying Assad’s actions. It’s a moral blame game. For this pragmatic stance they are smeared as tankies, Assadists, Russian bots and whatnot. I’m sorry but I can’t support this “let’s show humility before the complexity of this situation and not land on any side and just express solidarity to the Syrian people” stance. It’s such an obvious cop-out. You have doubts about Assad, the armed opposition and various other powers in this conflict but you don’t want to get dirt on your hands so you play this beautiful soul who refuses to take a side and supports a utopian option that doesn’t exist. I used to be like that until I began researching the Syrian conflict more closely. Let’s rather have the courage to look at the situation more pragmatically and pick a side and a proper foreign policy to go with it.
If you’re genuinely interested in open conversations about Syria I hope you’ve also invited someone from the anti-imperialist left to present counter-arguments. Someone like Rania Khalek would be an excellent balancing voice to the debate.
All fair points. It was unclear his thoughts on the jihadist rebels, but his overall feeling was clearly that however bad the rebels are, Assad is equally bad, and he feels uncomfortable with a leftist movement which, at the moment, has no other solution but to bolster the Assad regime and let the Syrian people continue to deal with that. However, yes, pragmatically a way forward is rather unclear, other than for us Western leftists to devote as much energy as we do to stopping the US bombs to also opening the borders and providing aid. Mexie is planning to interview some leftists who fought with the YPG on an upcoming episode, for a more in depth look at Rojava and Kurdish resistance. We’ll also try to get Rania Khalek on the show, that would be great.
Ugh.. now I feel embarrassed that I left such a polemical comment. I’ve been following this debate on social media quite closely and it’s extremely polarized and I hate seeing some of my favorite journalists get smeared all the time. I got frustrated listening to this guy and I let my tribal instincts take control. Sorry about that. Should have taken a moment before replying.
I’m well aware that everyone here has good intentions and I’m looking forward to the other interviews.
Don’t be embarrassed! Your points are valid, and these are definitely polarizing issues. We expected that people would push back a great deal about things he said. We still thought it was important to share since we recognize that some of the hard-line leftist discourse could feel really disempowering to Syrians who are suffering tremendously under Assad, and that we should reflect on how much energy we actually spend on anti-bomb campaigns versus opening the borders. I personally haven’t seen the same kind of passionate and unified action for refugees. We will definitely be doing a follow-up show, though, with alternate perspectives/voices. We hope that at least some of what he shared was productive for you or gave listeners some pause/things to consider. Thanks for listening and engaging with it all!
It was unclear because Yazan was looking for something that doesn’t exist. there isn’t a substantial progressive group to be supported by the West. The Kurds seem to be organized within an ethnic line (and thus, will not be able to encompass the larger population). In fact, it would be more likely to become the 2nd Israel should their movement succeed. Yazan talk about change like rolling a dice and there’s a chance something good coming out. It’s not hard to look at the sides of the dice to see if “good” or “better” is written on any of it.
The reason anti-war sentiment is stronger than the push to help refugee is simple. It’s not any defect on the left movement. people find it comfortable that they don’t have to spend money (which is what war feel like to average people), and taking in refugee would equate to a cost. people on the left pursue both strategies (ending western intervention and supporting refugee. the former is more successful because it resonates with the pettiness of an average person).
This interview is utter disgrace. Newer have I seen such shameless and brazen laying remain so lackadaisically unchallenged by supposed “leftist”. Pretty much every word, with only handful of exceptions, is utter and complete easily provable lie.
To start Yazan Al-Saadi claim war in Syria started as some kind of domestic insurrection is utter bullshit. From the day one it was product of infiltration and subversion of US, UK, France and Israeli secret services, flowing standard patterns to seen to almost all US orchestrated coups, with large armed mobs, described by anglo-american propaganda as peaceful protesters, attacking government facilities, and with unknown snipers randomly shooting civilian population. We have seen this in Venezuela, in Iran, in Ukraine, in Libya, and it goes on and on. And we even have leaks from inside US they were planing this war against Syria for year before it started:
https://www.mintpressnews.com/wikileaks-us-israel-and-saudi-arabia-planned-overthrow-of-syrian-govt-in-2006/221784/
And this attack on Syria was only a part of much smaller plan of imperial conquest develop back in 2001 if not form before that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E
Next big lie by Yazan Al-Saadiis that Assad is a dictator. Again this is shameless lie trivially proven to be so. It takes 30s internet search to get this result on Syrian parliament and presidential election results:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Syria
Even UK propaganda pro imperialist rag like Guardian admits Assad has majority support in Syria :
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda
It is utter disgrace for Marine, that falsely describes itself as “leftist”, to allow laying scum like Yazan Al-Saadiisto to say that Assad mast go. Who is he or she to dictate to Syrian people who they will have as their president? This no issue of supporting Assad or not, this is issue of respecting the rule of the law and democratic will of Syrian people that are by majority supporting their incumbent elected president. Yazan Al-Saadiisto and Marine only show their true colours as fake “leftist “ that are in fact liberal imperialist. Obsessed with identity and lifestile politics while ignoring, or outright supporting by lies and propaganda, imperialist wars and mass murder.
Next shameless lie Yazan Al-Saadiisto spews up is that Syrian government is responsible for various chemical attack. All of those were without exception exposed as false flags (like the one in 2013):
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin
all complete fakes like the one fabricated this year as casus beli for US, UK, France aggression against Syria:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html
https://www.rt.com/news/424563-douma-boy-chemical-video/
In that contexts it is hardy surprising Yazan Al-Saadiisto wants to diminish importance of those chemical attacks as all evidence points out those were either fakes or false flags by US / Saudi, Turkey sponsored terrorist he supports.
Next is his display of outstanding hypocrisy. He said Assad must be removed despite being elected president because he ineffective at fighting US, UK, France and Turkish sponsored forces invading his country, Invasion Al-Saadiisto vocally supports and shamelessly lies for. At the same time he attacks Assad for not forcing Syrian forces to attack heavily fortified ISIS position in Yarmouk camp without use of heavy artillery and air support. This is how ISIS fortification in Yarmouk camp look like :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ZWdiIRwUg
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/video-syrian-army-discovers-tunnel-boring-machine-in-former-isis-enclave-south-of-capital/
and Al-Saadiisto has chutzpah to condemn Assad for not forcing Syrian and ally solders to attack those positions as unsupported infantry.
Next outstanding duplicity is his false equivalence between Syrian allies of Iran and Russia that are assisting Syria in defence against aggression as same as perpetrators of that aggression US, UK, France, Turks and Israeli. This is despicable and dishonest, simultaneously denying Syria right to self defence against western imperialism and equating act of aggression as same as providing defensive assistance to ally in need.
He also lied that Syrian government did not provide it’s citizens with public services such free education, healthcare, pension and so on, as well as subsidies to important commodities such as fuel and bread. It did, and still does to extent it is capable under war condition.
There are only 2 truths Al-Saadiistoi said n this entire pathetic interview.
First is that Kurdish forces were early in the war friendly with Syrian government, until US come in with bunch of money and both them off .
Second is that history repeats itself, first time as a tragedy 2nd time as a farce. In this case he is that farce because this entire shit sow he peddles is eerie reminiscent of fake leftist (in fact cripto fascist and imperialist) before WW2 that were pushing anti soviet propaganda with endless piles of outright shames fabrications and lies. Case in point:
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf
One thing I’d like to know is who is paying this shill? MI6, MIT, Mosad, DIA, CIA, Saudi? And how did he end up in contact whit Marine? Does he target gullible young liberals to give him platform to peddle his lies, or did she actually solicited him for interview?
Either way he is paid shill. No way he can support all the travelling he does around the globe on modest cartoon fees without permanent job and stable employment. Someone is paying his extravagant life stile for him in exchange for shilling and push propaganda, no doubt about it.
Thanks for your comment, we knew that what Yazan had to say would definitely rile up our listeners. Are you Syrian? We appreciate that there are a diversity of Syrian perspectives. It is important, we think, to take seriously Syrians who are living through the violence who do not support Assad, even though some may. As for the weapons, yes, there’s been a lot of controversy and false reporting on that. However Yazan’s point was that regardless of whether chemical weapons were used, the weapons that Assad is using against his own people are still atrocious. It is not up to Westerners to decide the fate of the country, you’re right. But the counter-point Yazan raises is that it also feels disempowering for Syrians who want Assad gone but are forced to live with the brutality in the name of anti-imperialism. At the very least it should give us leftists in the West some pause, and maybe have us reflect on ways in which we can support the Syrian people without falling into false hero worship of Assad, whose government is certainly not revolutionary. We will be doing a follow-up episode and will be bringing on leftist commentators to respond to the points he brought up here. We are hoping to have Rania Khalek, and will also be talking to someone who fought with the YPG for a more in-depth look at Rojava. Thanks for listening and engaging
no offense.. but your guest is clearly biased and contradicteds himself constantly
as example first he gives a history how long assad is leading the regime and then he talks about he decades done the false steps…also he completly ignores that syria is multirelgious multiethnical group…the next part is that he thinks humanity is a valid tactic against a regimechange. if you would actually look up when regimechance was a topic then its clear that a leader would react how assad reacted…there are youtube vidoes out where 10 years before the actual syrian war regimechange was a topic…heck even a us-journalist interviewed assad about that topic. if you take a look how cia operated in the past, yes then i would trust nobdoy
its also funny how the guy plays down his social advantages compared to other countries in the middle east
Terrible guest.
The fact that he downplays the alliances of the white helmets but in the same breath berated the rojava because of THEIR alliances is very telling, honestly.
“However, yes, pragmatically a way forward is rather unclear, other than for us Western leftists to devote as much energy as we do to stopping the US bombs […]
But not even that is good for him, right? he even criticized people who protested Trumps bombings of Assad.
Thanks to both for the comments. True, the alliance bit was inconsistent. I got the impression that he feels that the White Helmets are providing a very necessary service for Syrians in need. He seemed to not feel the same way about Rojava. And yes, I think his first priority is getting rid of Assad, and he feels frustrated listening to leftists from the West wanting to consign him to that regime, which is in his right to feel, whether we agree or not.
After listening to the new episode, just to make it clear that my criticisms are no knock on you guys. If all, it makes it clear to me that the regime change left really can´t sustain their arguments in a coherent basis, and only uses idiotic analogies that don´t really apply to the reality of the situation.
Thanks! No, we weren’t talking about you in the opening segment. Your comment is totally fair and not a personal dig at Marine.
i thoroughly enjoyed this podcast, which sought to give a nuanced description of the syrian war/occupation. i would identify as a western anti-imperialist leftist that is squarely taken aim at here, and i appreciate Yazan’s honesty and candor. I certainly feel uncomfortable siding with the likes of Putin (who is no communist) or Assad, but we on the left in the west are forced to do so when the US and her allies brutalize other sovereign nations. War (and foreign policy) is like a game of chess; you can only move the pieces which are on the board. Yazan certainly smacks of a leftcomm or utopian thinker when he mystifies the actors involved and in a way urges us to inaction against the US war machine, opening borders (which of course would be one available answer, not the final word) or supporting medicines sans frontiers – noble, yet ultimately a band aid solution.
While i love his comics and find them a treasure, i must admit that Yazan gives something of a pass to the ignominious white helmets and western forces, whose regime change we hardly need a crystal ball to see: look elsewhere in the region, the eastern bloc and latin america, etc. to see the catastrophic effects of their “humanitarian” intervention. this is understandable as far as his hatred for assad’s brutality goes, but is wishful thinking and mystification if we look at the evidence supplied to us by many sources, notably wikileaks concerning US’s long term plans to dominate the region.
thanks again, for giving us food for thought Marine
Thanks, Red! You make some great points.